Talk:The Survivors
The Whyfores It always seemed to me that people painted the Space Marines too one-dimensionally; hell yeah, they're warriors without match, but they're also too human to be just that. As Shipmaster Baryk Carya said, in Flight of the Eisenstein 'in some ways you are like wanton siblings who yearn for a place, for fraternity, but also spark against one another with your rivalries. Like all men, youstrive to escape from the shadow of your father, but also to seek his pride.' We've seen Space marines as Paladins of righteousness, as darkest villains, as honorable men, and as dastards, but I don't think we haven't yet seen them as cowards. The Survivors' sole motivation is fear: they are running for their lives, from everybody; if they let other people join them, it's because they think there's safety in numbers; they are neither heroes nor villains, for they haven't the courage to be either. So that's what they're about, please tell me what you think.--Jochannon 10:22, November 16, 2009 (UTC) hmmm... im personally not sure if much of that is possible. Things im looking at is the Fallen (the Dark Angels would never give up a pursuit of the fallen) and the Space Wolves dont generally have cowards within their ranks, not in their genes. Run4 is prob a better voice on this --[http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:NoFuryLikeMine War within, War without, War unending] 11:50, November 16, 2009 (UTC) :Once a Space Marine turns renegade, whether Chaos is involved or not, there's no turning back. They'll always be running, or they're dead meat. Just like Chaos Marines, while these guys probably don't know fear, they have a fairly sensible desire to be able to wake up in the morning. Once they decide to put their own needs before the needs of the Imperium, they've as good as spat on their oaths and gone AWOL. A parcel of Rogues like this might exist, but not enough for a full Company, much less a Chapter. //--''Run4My Talk'' 14:59, November 16, 2009 (UTC) Don't forget that if the Dark Angels find out there are fallen there you won't necessarily have only 1 chapter hunting you down, but all 7 canon Unforgiven Chapters (8 if you include my fanon chapter as well). Patriot398 19:57, November 16, 2009 (UTC) NoFury; the timeline is a bit vague, but The Survivors encountered the Dark Angels shortly after the destruction of Caliban; there were a lot of Fallen Angels scattered all over the place, and The Survivors were just one target among many: being fleet-based, and already running for their lives, they would have been one of the hardest to run down. And remember: there were still a lot of Chaos warbands running around then, as well as Imperial Army renegades, various splinter groups, and the coming showdown over the Codex Astartes and the 2nd Founding: it seems to me, that in that situation, it would have been relatively easy for a small fleet to make a long Warp jump, then slip away to the Eastern Fringe(on the other side of the Imperium from Caliban); by the time the 'Angels had themselves sorted out, and really set out Fallen-hunting, there would have been nary a trace fro them to follow. Run4; I'm not saying you're wrong, but from these guys' point of view, they didn't abandon their oaths to the Imperium; they thought Terra had fallen, so they decided it was their duty to escape so at least some resistance to Horus would continue. The reality is that they did abandon the Empire in it's hour of need; so basically, they're in denial. And, they're nowhere near full chapter strength. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Patriot398, thanks, I hadn't forgotten the Unforgiven; being in the Eastern Fringe though, they're about as far from any Unforgiven as it's possible to get, so you guys will have your job cut out for you.--Jochannon 12:23, November 17, 2009 (UTC) It indeed is a bit vague... but there is still too many inconsistencies within the article. It has mentionings of the Fallen joining over the millenia which would result in them still being hunted by the Unforgiven. The Space Wolves point is also very valid. Space Wolves are not cowards, nor traitors and would not ally themselves with renegades due to their honour and loyalty (not to mention their geneseed as well and utter dislike for dark angels eg. the Fallen). It would prob be safer to remove loyalist space marine chapters altogether --[http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:NoFuryLikeMine War within, War without, War unending] 12:36, November 17, 2009 (UTC) If the Space Wolves hated the Dark Angels so much why does't Ragnar Blackmane spill the beans on the Dark Angels little secret? Patriot398 00:48, November 18, 2009 (UTC) The Lion and Leman Russ reconciled a truce during the Siege of the Crimson Fortress, if the lexicanum is correct. The fight still continues with the fighting of two elected champions every so many years. KuHB1aM 00:53, November 18, 2009 (UTC) Indeed Ragnar doesnt 'spill the beans' but that is a bond forged in blood and war between him and a single dark angel. The feud between the Space Wolves and Dark Angels began with Jonson sucker punching Russ before the heresy and continues to this day. This usually consists of a duel between 2 champions but occasionally becomes larger and more violent --[http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:NoFuryLikeMine War within, War without, War unending] 09:36, November 18, 2009 (UTC) Where is it suggested that it becomes larger and more violent? From what I've seen it looks more like a ritual than a feud. Not to get too OT but would the successor chapters also participate at this? Just wondering, at the hobby shop we have one space wolf player and three dark angel players so he gets to duel a lot.Patriot398 19:29, November 18, 2009 (UTC) On the lexicanum site also the Dark Angels codex I have, next to Space Wolves, Dark Angels are my favourite... Ive read up a fair bit on em. Im not too sure regarding the successor chapters, I dont believe they would due to not being Dark Angels, but its possible --[http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:NoFuryLikeMine War within, War without, War unending] 05:48, November 19, 2009 (UTC) What page in the codex? I would like to look it up. I've read through it a few times and must've missed it. Thanks Patriot398 06:46, November 19, 2009 (UTC) Once I get home ill check it out, then let you know... however seeing as you would like to get snarky about it how about you go look again until I get home --[http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:NoFuryLikeMine War within, War without, War unending] 09:03, November 19, 2009 (UTC) I'm not being snarky I'm genuinely curious because I havent found that particular bit. Patriot398 05:40, November 21, 2009 (UTC) Fallen Angels Run4, I wrote: 'Over the Millennia, other outcasts have joined them, including Fallen Angels, pirates, Imperial schismatics...' which does not, I think, imply that different groups of Fallen have joined over the millennia.--Jochannon 12:22, November 18, 2009 (UTC) :Just for the sake of clarification, I never mentioned the Fallen. I just said when a Space Marine turned his back on the Imperium, there was no going back, and they'd be hunted forever. //--''Run4My Talk'' 14:54, November 21, 2009 (UTC) Sorry, I guess I confused you with Nofurylikemine.--Jochannon 15:37, November 21, 2009 (UTC) :Meh, it happens. No biggie. //--''Run4My Talk'' 15:52, November 21, 2009 (UTC) Space Wolves Here's the truth: I meant 'Wolf Brothers' but I got confused about the name; I don't think there's any problem with having them going renegade, 'cause they did.--Jochannon 12:22, November 18, 2009 (UTC) Actually it does kinda imply other Fallen have joined over the millenia, but that is simple wording to remove or modify to fix. With the Wolf Brothers however, the Wulfen Gene is unpredictable and turns the Astartes into more beast than man, they would be unable to turn renegade unless they were being controlled by more stable Astartes of the same Gene-seed (eg. not wulfen Wolf Brothers or Space Wolves). Not impossible to put them into the article but will have to be worded carefully, again i say its prob safer to remove altogether --[http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:NoFuryLikeMine War within, War without, War unending] 12:40, November 18, 2009 (UTC) I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say; I'm gonna say this, just to make sure we're on the same page: I am well aware of what the Wulfen Gene does; I am equally aware that the Wolf Brothers are particularly vulnerable to it, over and above even the 13th Grand Company of the Space Wolves; there are Wolf brother renegades(Dead Sky, Black Sun), and Wolf Brother warbands('Apocalypse' p.171). Regarding the Fallen, well... I don't know, I just don't see how it implies other fallen have joined. But okay, I'll rewrite it.--Jochannon 10:41, November 19, 2009 (UTC) Dont get me wrong, its a good idea... all im saying is ul need to be careful with how you are writing the article. Parts dont fit in but easy to fix --[http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:NoFuryLikeMine War within, War without, War unending] 10:53, November 19, 2009 (UTC) Right, thanks. I'll try to keep t in mind.--Jochannon 12:26, November 19, 2009 (UTC) Other Groups One thing I'd like to make clear, which I don't think I have, is that this article is not meant to mean that other loyalist Marines did not escape Isstvan separate from The Survivors, or that there are not other loyalist splinter groups of the fallen legions out there.--Jochannon 08:53, November 22, 2009 (UTC) Dusk Raiders Um, dude... there were only 13 Dusk Raiders who survived Isstvan III, and you talk as if they're still living. Their mental state would have decline by now to the point where they would die from it (excluding dreadnoughts), and I've already claimed the Eisenstein loyalists in W40k fanon for Galerus Hraav in an RP. KuHB1aM 22:08, November 23, 2009 (UTC) EDIT: Upon noticing, I also see you have named loyalists from the other Traitor Legions. Not exactly canon, dude. KuHB1aM 00:26, November 24, 2009 (UTC) This is canon: there were loyalist marines who were not sent down to Isstvan III, such as Saul Tarvitz of the Emperor's Children, Gavriel Loken, Torgaddon, and Iacton Qruze of the Sons of Horus, Varren of the World Eaters; where one ship, the Eisenstein, escaped, others may as well. Then too, there were dozens of ships of the fleet that were lost in the warp, and did not arrive at Isstvan(Flight of the Eisenstein, p.255), it is not impossible that the companies and crew of these ships could survive the warp and remain loyal. This is all canon. Now, when we're talking about loyalists splinter groups from the traitor legions, it's a very delicate subject, I understand this. A few admins have looked at this, including Run4 and nofurylikemine, and they have not objected to the Survivors -at least as a concept.--Jochannon 08:11, November 24, 2009 (UTC) *I have to agree with both points on this (sounds confusing but let me explain). The idea has really come along seeing as I myself havent looked at it for a few days. Its true the only loyalists recorded were those of the eisenstein, however one can argue that just because that is who the books were based on, doesnt mean they were the only survivors. That just means GW decided to focus on the most important group from the traitors. The loyalists fleeing after Istvaan V rather than Istvaan III makes it all possible due to the legions being distracted. *However with the Sons of Horus fleeing at Istvaan III i wholeheartedly agree with Kuh. It would not be possible. Qruze and the eisenstein barely managed to escape and only did so because of the element of surprise. Any ship that tried after would have been destroyed instantly due to the others being on full alert and any ship that tried before would have alerted the fleet and the eisenstein wouldnt have had the element of surprise. Thats not really feasible. All in all the article is coming along and is showing a lot of potential (well worded as well to make a lot of it possible). I particuarly like how youve avoided the mind degradation point by still having the marines recruiting rather than living forever. However in the end its for Kuh and the other admins to make the final call what should be done coz he brought it all up --[http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:NoFuryLikeMine War within, War without, War unending] 09:57, November 24, 2009 (UTC) I wouldn't argue against any other loyalists, but the true of the matter is that the Eisenstein contained the only surviving loyalists out of the Traitor Legions; it's canon, I'm pretty sure. All others died on Isstvan III. The other groups make sense, but these Traitor Legion groups don't quite fit. Plus the numbers you put them would probably be impossible; the Traitor Legions wouldn't have been that sloppy in mopping up their counterparts. KuHB1aM 11:58, November 24, 2009 (UTC) Thats a fair point as well, unless it was only a couple of each legion that escaped and they multiplied over time through recruitment and splicing of the geneseed it would be very unlikely to have that amount of numbers. Would also require at least 1 of each legion be an apothecary --[http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:NoFuryLikeMine War within, War without, War unending] 12:01, November 24, 2009 (UTC) Okay, it seems there are a few things I have failed to make clear: 1. They're not loyalists: the original survivors were loyalists in the sense that they refused to join with Horus at Isstvan III, but they turned traitor themselves when they turned tail and fled rather than fight at the battle of Terra; a few groups among the Survivors may consider themselves loyal, but the bottom line is they're renegades. 2. The numbers involved. I thought I was clear, guess I wasn't; here goes: I was thinking like 7-15 marines from each Legion, 4-7 ships; in the Chapter fleets, they keep a command squad of Marines on each ship, so it seems reasonable to me for that to hold true back when they were legions; some of the groups would include an Apothecary, others not, so some groups would have to combine, while others could rebuild. 3. The timing: KuHB1aM, you're absolutely right, as far as you go, but remember that the traitor fleet hung around Isstvan III for quite a while after the Eisenstein left; there was the ground campaign to mop up the surviving loyalists, which ground on longer than anybody expected, which dragged in the traitors' strength, and certainly a lot of their attention too; which could have made it possible for a small prepared group to make their escape. After reading what you wrote I did a little research; as far as I am aware, nowhere has it been stated in a canon source that the Eisenstein group was the only loyal survivors; I'm not trying to argue the point, but I'm not so sure it's canon truth.--Jochannon 15:16, November 24, 2009 (UTC) The point is, it's simply not possible. If you want, you may ask Run4. I'm pretty sure he brought up the same point to me on the fact that the Eisenstein loyalists are the only survivors in canon. Pretty much every loyalist except for them died during the bombardment of the Choral Palace or when the virus bombs hit. Any Stormbirds would have been shot out of the air, and even if they made it to orbit, they would never have been able to capture a capital ship or anything with warp drive capability. (Captain Garro had the advantage of already being on the Eisenstein, I think). There were no loyalist capital ships at Isstvan III. KuHB1aM 21:17, November 24, 2009 (UTC) Only survivors of Isstvan III. There were a few Raven Guard survivors of the Drop Site Massacres. And who knows about any members of the Traitor Legions who turned on the Imperium but didn't follow the worship of Chaos either, like the Alpha Legion? Some could have decided the only side they were on was their own. These guys seem to have done that, believing that the Imperium was destroyed. //--''Run4My Talk'' 21:40, November 24, 2009 (UTC) I agree with Run4, it is possible especially with the numbers you mentioned. Sorry for the wording Joch, i referred to them as loyalists simply to set them apart from the traitors --[http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:NoFuryLikeMine War within, War without, War unending] 00:53, November 25, 2009 (UTC) :'Salright mate. I was talking about the Traitor Legions only, Run4. KuHB1aM 01:30, November 25, 2009 (UTC) Ground vs. Orbit I'm sorry KuH, I don't seem to be making myself clear: I'm not talking about people shuttling up from the planet, boarding a few ships, then breaking orbit; I'm talking about people already on board ships simply turning them about and leaving. There were loyalists in orbit; the entire 7th Grand Company of the Death Guard was kept in orbit; if any of them heard about Garro's flight, I think at least some of them would have tried to follow his example. You're right about the capital ship though; a grand cruiser is over the top, I'll have to change that.--Jochannon 09:20, November 25, 2009 (UTC) Yes, but the fact is they just couldn't escape. Horus and his Traitor Primarchs at Isstvan III planned for every eventuality; that includes destroying the ships of those they knew to be loyalists if they didn't have control at the time. KuHB1aM 13:26, November 25, 2009 (UTC) No, they didn't: they didn't prepare for someone warning the loyalists on the ground of the bombardment; they didn't prepare for a lengthy ground battle; there was a lot they didn't prepare for: all-in-all, it was a pretty sloppy coups. Let me tell you this: space is big: it is all but impossible to close off every escape route for a ship, especially when you don't know which ship(s) is/are going to try to escape. Try this experiment: take a fleet of battlefleet gothic ships and assemble them on a table around a planet; set them up any way you like. Then have a friend pick one ship(or squadron of escorts) and try to escape with it; try to stop him. You might manage it, but it'll be very difficult. And that's in only two dimensions: it'd be even harder in three! One more thing; about the Eisenstein escape: the Eisenstein didn't really have such a surprise advantage: mr. Maas warned Typhon they were gonna try to escape; and the Eisenstein was in a very bad position for their escape; when you consider the sheer size of of the fleet(four legions' worth) there must have been dozens, scores, of ships with potential loyalists aboard in a better position to escape.--Jochannon 14:07, November 25, 2009 (UTC) Isstvan VI and the Drop Site Massacres was the attack that went off without a hitch. Isstvan III had a lot of problems (notably the Loyalists in the ranks). As for other ships that could have escaped from a better position, they weren't Loyalist-commanded. The Eisenstein got out by the skin of it's teeth. As for deserters from other battles, that leaves more options. The discipline and loyalty of the Space Marines was absolute, until the Heresy. Fighting people you called brother for decades would be incredibly demoralising for some (though galvanising for others). //--''Run4My Talk'' 17:20, November 25, 2009 (UTC) You say potential, Jochannon. That's the hole that I'm concerned about. Look at Run4's point. I guarantee you that there were no loyalist ships besides the Eisenstein. The Traitor Primarchs identified the loyalists in their ranks (with the exception of Saul Tarvitz and Ancient Rylanor, who still went down to the surface) and either murdered them or placed them in the spearhead assault on the Choral City and it's surrounding defenses. Your trying to prove something that, although possible, is highly unlikely and relies on using the undetermined. KuHB1aM 17:52, November 25, 2009 (UTC) All I'm trying to 'prove' is that it's possible, which you say it is.--Jochannon 09:27, November 26, 2009 (UTC) How about this for a scenario: a group of Marines pledge themselves to Horus, sure he's gonna win. Then the Eisenstein gets away; then the Loyalist survivors turn up on Isstvan III; then the ground campaign turns into a debacle; these Marines start thinking they've picked the wrong side, so they just slip away: since they already pledged their loyalty to Horus et al, the hard-core traitors would have no reason to watch them carefully; some of them may even have been on the picket ships supposed to keep people from running off. They set course for Sol, planning to claim they were loyal all along, but they are becalmed in the Warp, and by the time they get to Sol, Horus has already landed on Terra, and his victory looks certain, so they turn around and start running, and never stopped. Does that sound reasonable? --Jochannon 13:30, November 26, 2009 (UTC) Sounds good to me. KuHB1aM 13:41, November 26, 2009 (UTC) Okay. Makes more sense than the loyalists anyway.--Jochannon 16:02, November 26, 2009 (UTC) True dat. KuHB1aM 16:28, November 26, 2009 (UTC) Dusk Raider's Colors Just a friendly FYI. The Dusk Raiders painted their right arm red to show that they were the bloody right hand of the Emperor. Don't know if you wanted to include that. Kudos on the chapter though. I like the ida and had toyed around with this same concept for my Scarlet Skulls when I first began designing them, but decided against it.Thisarmysucks 21:22, January 21, 2010 (UTC) :Thank you. Jochannon 07:03, November 2, 2010 (UTC)